Sound Destruction: ME - A FRINGE LEFT WACKO?!

Tuesday, August 09, 2005


I had a bizarre exchange over at Chris Wood's site, Political Forecast (a politically progressive site). Another commenter was calling into question America's sympathy for Cindy Sheehan, the mother who is among many stationed outside of Bush's Crawford Ranch in an attempt to ask Bush why her son had to die in Iraq. So, in response I commented:

"Respectfully, Alan, in the same vein that you're exercising your freedom of speech to express your discontent with Cindy Sheehan's actions, she's exercising hers. Furthermore, her son nobly volunteered to defend and protect the constitution, not to be a pawn in a corrupt political agenda that prompted an historic pre-emptive war for which the justification has been proven false."

For that I was labeled a fringe left wacko who would have the majority of America and soldiers laughing at me for my conspiracy theory of the likes that Bush knew about 9/11 before hand and other fringe left wacko theories.

I have no beef with this guy personally. So why is he being so offensively defensive? This strikes me a perfect example of how this administration's "you're either with us or against us" propaganda prooved successful in further dividing us as a nation.


Blogger Doug said...

I don't know that polarizing is working like it used to. I notice a conservative agreed with you. I think a$$&@*e is it's own party with local chapters on the left and the right.

I do find "fringe left wacko" kind of funny, though, in your case.

11:47 AM  
Blogger araider said...

I agree with you for the most part.
I don't think the lady needs to be arrested for protesting the death of her son and she and others who are doing the same thing should not be considered a National Security threat. She has her reasons just like any good normal parent does. I don't know what I would do in that situation.
On the other hand, any military I think would be considered pawns of their government if it's a right or wrong conflict. Agree or disagree with Iraq, if someone volunteers or gets drafted they are automatically pawns and heroes at the same time.

11:51 AM  
Blogger tlm said...

Well, sar, it doesn't help when your side posts things like FUGWB, chimpy, and stupid rogue cowboy. (Which, besides being incredibly juvenile, are not respectful of the office. Call him wrong, criticize his policies, etc... Just don't give more ammo to our enemies, folks. It's very un-American.)

It strikes me as extremely hypocritical to bitch about the partisan divisiveness. (Not a personal attack on you, sar! There are numerous offenders here. :))

12:05 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

TLM, I'm living proof that considering the current President a catastrophe is non-partisan. I missed "chimpy." That's funny.

12:44 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

How cool is that - conservative readers offered the first comments. I like that! Healthy debate, people, this is what I'm talking about!

Araider - the fact that a grieving mother will be arrested for peacefully exercising her freedom of speech because she's been ridiculously dubbed a National Security Threat does not win the administration any favor with me. I agree that our servicemen and women are simultaneously pawns and heros. From my perspective, it's profoundly dissapointing that the President saw fit to use these genuine heros as pawns for his personal agenda. There is plenty of documentation to support this, so, no, it's not a radical conspiracy theory.

TLM - Respect is earned. And while I hold great respect for Office of The President of The United States, I do not for George W. Bush. As for calling him names, well, it's no different from those who refer to Bill Clinton as Slick Willy (not saying you do, TLM). Plus, I've been told it makes for some entertaining posts around here. ; ) And while I agree it takes 2 to tango, I haven't seen this administration take steps towards healing the national division; rather, they've either directly promoted it or ignored it.

Doug - it's really interesting to hear the views of a conservative who's disgruntled with the administration as well. I'd imagine there are many conservatives and moderates who are none to happy about how far right the Republican party has gone. BTW, thanks for speaking up over at Political Forecast too. :)

1:45 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Thanks, Sar, but my issue with the Republicans has nothing to do with how far right they've gone. I think I'm really to the right of the President on most traditional conservative issues. Partly it's about having the honesty and accountability to admit that the guy in power is a disaster even when he's supposed to be on your side. Partly it's because the people calling themselves conservatives have picked up all the bad habits that used to annoy me in liberals. I'm just never going to get behind self-annointed victims, people who think the government should be responsible for moral conduct among citizens or people who assume they're always right.

I guess because I look at government through conservative eyes I see the president through liberal ones.

Regarding "respect the office," TLM, I don't see how you can respect the office of the President without having standards for candor, integrity and effectiveness and I don't see how you can have standards for those things and still support Bush.

1:57 PM  
Blogger tlm said...

Doug- I think you guys are setting the bar too high for "integrity"... If you'll recall, the last President didn't have much of that, and I'd dare say most of you here think he was a pretty nifty president.

As for "candor" and "effectiveness", not everyone in the country is going to agree with your interpretation of those words. I'm one of the roughly 50% who doesn't.

(I don't consider "candor" an important trait for the presidency anyway. He can do an effective job in secret, for all I care. Our congressmen, however, should be accountable. It's in their job description.)

2:07 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

TLM, you've never heard me defend Clinton. Regarding Candor, I'm not saying we need to know everything as soon as the President does, but I don't give a lot of mulligans on casus belli.

By the way, I think most of us agree on the meanings of candor and effectiveness. 41% at last count don't seem to care.

2:15 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

TLM - integrity in politicians has always been questionable. Sure, there are aspects of Clinton's presidency that I respected him for, but even though I'm a liberal, I did not condone his affairs nor his lies about it. (How's that for a fring left wacko? ;)) Still, that doesn't give Bush a free pass either. And I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment that congressmen have accountability but the President does not. As President, he is the ultimate voice of our country in the eyes, er um ears, of the world.

3:58 PM  
Blogger Nedhead said...

I don't like the way neoconservative wing of the republican party is so vitriolic in their opinions of any who disagree with their agenda and love of the current administration.

Fascism ain't good. Look it up, that is exactly what these clowns practice.

tlm, fact is Bush has damaged our country far worse than any name calling of him could ever do (my facts, not yours). His actions are more un-American than any of the comments I've read here. This administration provides the ammo, not the name calling.

Arresting that mother for her actions is shameful. Although par for the course for the current administration.

Enlisting in the military doesn't always mean you are willing to take the risk of war. College money, job security, the military is a haven for many people who may otherwise not have viable career options. And the enlistee may know in the back of his/her mind that the risk of war/death is there, but it ain't at the forefront. Trust me.

Congress is full of republican and democrat monkeys who like to fling feces at each other and the American public. They are more criminally negligent than the administration and too many of them will serve far longer in government, inflicting greater damage than the current administration could ever dream of!

But I do lead a good life, and even with a Chimp at the helm, I am maintaining the status quo. I feel better now, thank you.

4:45 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

Nedhead - You raise a good point about enlisting for college tuition. I read an article recently about a gal who is enlisting for tuition to nursing school, but she's scared about going to Iraq. It seems to me with recruitment so significantly down and tuition being a great seducer to new recruits, we won't be seeing college tuitions being made more affordable anytime soon.

5:05 PM  
Blogger actonbell said...

Good post! My heart goes out to everyone who lost loved ones in this war. I can't imagine the kind of anger they must feel.

5:23 PM  
Blogger tlm said...

Doug- Then go ahead and count me as one of the 41% (even though I was never polled.) You'd think the other 59% would win back control in the next election cycle then. Time will tell, I suppose.

Sorry if I don't side with y'all in validating those poll results... The sad truth is the majority of Americans either don't care enough, or can't think for themselves. When the media hammers home the negative message, the people listen.

sar- I know.. I'd suspect Clinton wasn't even liberal enough to make you completely happy. :)

This whole Cindy Sheehan thing is silly anyway. There's little to debate here. If she is, in fact, going to be arrested (which is doubtful... this story just has the stench of legitimately wacko lefty troublemakers all over it!), then it's deserved. Like her politics or not, if she's trespassing, or inciting a potential threat against the President, then her ass goes to jail. Period. And y'all brand her a hero for doing it, well, that's fine too.

As you pointed out, sar, we have an all-volunteer military. So who's really speaking for Sheehan's son here? I know if I were in the military, I wouldn't have my mother speak on my behalf. She gets her opinions and I get mine. Ms. Sheehan is an opportunist who, unfortunately, will be further sucked into this by politically motivated cretins who are way out in left field.

nedhead- What then is the primary purpose of the military? I know our enlisted men aren't swearing an oath to "defend job security, and a paid-for college education". The military is there to protect and fight. If some recuiter convinces a kid that he'll only get the benefits and not face conflict, then shame on him.

I just read a quote from this reprehensible Sheehan lady: "That lying bastard, George Bush, is taking a five-week vacation in time of war."

Just like a typical talking-point-reading shill. Forget that the Supreme Court justices, Congress, most of Spain, and, until recently, school teachers all across America have taken at least five weeks off at a time. Hell, I'd do it if I had the ability.

5:27 PM  
Blogger Chris Woods said...

Thanks to this quote from tlm, I'm about to go Hulk-angry and some peoples asses (hopefully, its a joke; if so, forgive my impending rant):

Just don't give more ammo to our enemies, folks. It's very un-American.

I'm sick and fucking tired of people saying name calling gives terrorists something to work off of. They don't want to call Bush and Americans a bunch of fucking wackos or chimps or any shit like that, they just want to kill every damn one of us. It's just that simple. And yes, sometimes Democrats (we) need to be the party and country of killing the terrorists.

But we've also gotta be the country of responsibility, accountability, and liberty. If we can't make simple snide comments (if they were racist, bigoted, or otherwise harmful that's a different story) about a commander in chief we don't like without being called un-American then we just better quit trying to act all high and mighty and looking like we give a damn about liberties.

The last time we had a group of people trying to tell Americans what was and wasn't American was in the 1950s and history remembers that as being quite the ridiculous period of time. A political ideology doesn't get to tell me what is and what isn't American. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of these United States get to tell me what is American.

Until then, anyone else trying to espouse that bullshit can fuck-off.

/rant. Now that I've used the word fuck as much as they do in one episode of Deadwood, I'm off to chill out. And if I offended anyone by my vulgarities, I'm sorry.

6:10 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

Whoa...CW, just went Novak on us! ; )

TLM: a few thought in response

sad truth is the majority of Americans either don't care enough, or can't think for themselves. When the media hammers home the negative message, the people listen. - couldn't have said it better myself. We agree! :)

Admit it, life was good during Clinton's presidency which is probably why he won 2 terms uncontested. But I have to ask, do I really come across as THAT liberal? I'm actually much more moderate than you might think.

If you were dead, you couldn't very well speak for yourself, so wouldn't you want someone to speak up on your behalf? As for opportunist, you're right. But does she have a choice? This administration has turned a deaf ear and a blind eye to the victims of this war and their families.

I think it does warrant questionning when Bush who is responsible for the soldiers being in Iraq gets to kick back on summer vacation. I'll be the soldiers would also appreciate a 5 week vacation from the daily horrors of war.

7:06 PM  
Blogger tlm said...

cw- America is a nation/culture/ideal/etc. You don't get any of those from reading the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. (FYI, the Constitution merely limits the government from infringing on our [liberal-unfriendly word deleted here]-given rights. And the DoI makes us un-British.)

Still glad you got to rant, though. And I'm not offended, despite being told to fuck off.

(Though if you're gonna use those oh-so-witty "/" sayings, use some goddamn angle brackets! Not doing so offends me as an HTML geek. </geekiness>

7:30 PM  
Blogger tlm said...

sar- I think you're probably more liberal than you allow yourself to be. :)

(And I can just picture you seething at Pres. Clinton during the whole NAFTA thing many years ago!)

7:33 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

Someone fill me in, what is a "/" saying?

7:52 PM  
Blogger MoxieGrrrl said...

Sar -

Seems to me like a lot of people take personal offense when someone from the left expresses their displeasure about the current administration and feels it gives them license to verbally attack them back.

I find this very odd, since I felt no desire to attack someone personally for calling John Kerry or Howard Dean names. They are big boys, they can take care of themselves and lick their own wounds.

Sometimes, the right-wing just baffles me.

8:32 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

tlm, I'll back you up on this: If you join the military you probably shouldn't be too surprised if you end up doing something martial. That doesn't mean the President and the Senate shouldn't be able to explain why you went, but, yeah.

8:58 PM  
Blogger Nedhead said...

My comment about the military was regarding the mindset of, what I am guessing, to be fair portion of enlistees. Not all, not even a majority. I am speaking from experience, and from my exchanges with fellow former enlistees.

I was not commenting on what the military is for, nor am I justifying not living up to your contractual obligations to the military. (It is a contract you sign, that has a lot of them carefully!) I wasn't even addressing the governments responsibilities towards appropriate use of the military (a completely separate discussion...for when I am drunk and feeling depressed).

And tlm has made it clear that he ain't no mama's boy. Fine. But she has a right to speak her mind, and speak for her family and speak for her dead son. If she in fact is breaking a law (i.e. trespassing, threatening the life of the president, peeing on his front step, or mooning the presidents mom) then she deserves to be arrested. But isn't politics about oiling the squeaky wheel? Wouldn't it be a show of good faith if the prez allows a meeting with her and lets her spout off? What is the harm? Just because they meet with her doesn't mean they have to meet with everyone, no? Or is the president afraid of a little lady? Not much of a cowboy, I guess.....jsut more of the same.

Stonewalling and stubbornness. I tell ya', these guys get an A+ in the "that's my story, and I'm sticking to it" category!

9:39 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

TLM - Wow, now I'm a seething fringe left wacko. I'm starting to have an identity crisis.

Doug - Such a fickle conservative you are. ;)

Nedhead - Remind me to make sure I'm around next time you're drunk and feeling depressed -- for the conversation you pervs! ;)

Moxie - Baffled, dazed and confused. There's a song somewhere in there.

11:28 PM  
Blogger Nedhead said...

I promise I won't be depressed!

8:34 AM  
Blogger Sar said...


8:44 AM  
Blogger Kid Bastard said...

Oh, come on now, Sar. We all know what a radical you are. What with the guerilla compound and the hippie commune and all. ;)

And it sounds like ol' Georgie is a little scared. National Security Threat? Cindy Sheehan? Yes, lets focus the National Security apparatus on a grieving mother. That's having your priorities in order.

5:39 PM  
Blogger Chris Woods said...

If only I had used some Novak quotes, my rant could've been all the more entertaining. Oh well.

I'm glad you guys enjoyed the rant.

6:10 PM  
Blogger tlm said...

nedhead- I personally hope he doesn't meet with Ms. Sheehan. Selfish political motives aside, who the hell is she to get such special treatment? And being accompanied by throngs of her liberal handlers and pimps certainly isn't helping her cause.

Plus, the guy is on vacation. I know how pissed off I get when work people call me when I'm away from the office. I'm sure if *I* walked up to the Crawford gates and asked to speak with the President, I'd also be refused... As would each of you.

Ms. Sheehan is a publicity whore, plain and simple.

She should go bug Rumsfeld, if she has issues with U.S. military policy. (Boy, I'd pay to see that meeting!)

6:40 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

Kid - You were never supposed to tell! I deem you a national security threat! ;)

CW - enjoy your newfound infamy, we did!

TLM - something tells me they'd roll out the red carpet for you as opposed to the majority of us here. And Bush is a media whore too. I seem to remember something about a flight suit photo. And I still beg to differ about the President not being disturbed on his 5 week vacation while the nation's still at work and facing major issues - like the war. He is afterall Commander in Chief of that war. Oh, and be sure to save me a seat should there ever be a Sheehan/Rummy meeting!

10:46 PM  
Blogger Mike V. said...

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
--Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)

1:40 AM  
Blogger Chris Woods said...

Mike V. is my favorite person ever (for right now) because he pulled that quote out.

And I don't care if George W. Bush is on vacation or not, he's subservient to the American people--he better fucking answer us.

2:15 AM  
Blogger Mike V. said...

then be a good young man and link me off your page.. :)

to be honest, I'm not one to whip out political quotes that often, but sometimes they come in handy.
but you gotta be careful.
usually I use them in answer to some neo-con quoting a founding father, as any of them would even wipe GWB off their boot.

it's sort of like quoting the bible.
some dummy the other day pulled out the leviticus reasons for hating gay people.
problem with that is, there's just a few too many other things in that particular book of the bible that they are not living by.
well, no one is.
except for people that don't like shrimp.
and what kind of commie pinko doesn't like shrimp??

2:39 AM  
Blogger Sar said...

CW - I thought I was your favorite. *sigh* so fickle. ;) And for some reason I don't see Bush being subserviant to anyone, with the possible exception of Laura keeping him in line behind closed doors (resist the S&M puns!).

Mike - A hearty welcome! what kind of commie pinko doesn't like shrimp?? - Oh yeah, you're one of us. You're going right on the blogroll. (btw, thanks for linking to us over at your place, and I see you're a fellow Pink fan!!)

10:22 AM  
Blogger Mike V. said...

Yes, Sar, that is one of my weaknesses (is that a word?) along with dlisted.
It's such a great way to waste time at work, reading and posting junk on the InterTron!
Thanks for linking me.
And for the welcome.

11:17 AM  
Blogger araider said...

shrimp isn't kosher, but i love it.
I used to be a commie-pinko

11:28 AM  
Blogger Chris Woods said...

Okey doke, Mike, you've got the link on my place.

12:15 PM  
Blogger Sar said...

You're welcome, Mike. Any fellow Pink fan is a friend of mine. Even former commie-pinkos like Araider!

1:31 PM  
Blogger Mike V. said...

thanks, chris, as are you on mine.
both you guys have great sites, keep up the good work.
i'm off to a day game at petco to see the padres play the mets.

1:39 PM  
Blogger araider said...

thank you Sar, I really appreciate that!

1:43 PM  

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